I have to comment, here. I believe that Ware is literally true in his assertion that very few Christians would put their "election" at the top of their lists. However, I think that most would put their "salvation," or some other word with essentially the same meaning, on their lists, and many would indeed list that word at the top. Isn't it that we are saved through Christ by God's grace that we should praise God for, regardless of where we fall in the election debate?
The real introduction to, basically, the Reformed Church's view of election begins with his statement of intent, followed by an introduction and basic definition to some related terminology, which I give here in condensed form:
salvific election - election to salvation, specifically (as opposed to election to other things discussed in the Bible)
unconditional election - election not conditioned on particular attributes of the elect
individual election - God chose each individual, not groups of people (The underlying implications of this are a little unclear to me, and I hope to be able to bring them to light as I read more)
infralapsarian election - election after the fall; God knew before the foundations of the earth that we would be fallen and that he would choose to save some, but he did not view us as needing to be saved before the fall.
This hits upon the one of the main issues of predestination, in my mind. If God knew from before the earth was created that man would fall (and therefore some pre-known few would need to be saved), why was man created perfectly, or at all? Why was the tree placed in the garden that would allow man to fall, essentially with no hope otherwise, because God already knew man would fall? Why was the universe created in perfection, and why would God make something of His own accord that would begin “good” but would inevitably fall? This touches on issues of the omniscience and omnipotence of God as we understand it with our own, temporally limited minds, which is ultimately what the arguments for/against predestination are about, I think.
The focus of the rest of Ware's essay deals mostly with the concept of unconditional election. Tonight, I'll just list some of the highlights of his explanation, and I'll end with some of my thoughts and comments.
Elements of Unconditional Election:
- “specifically denies that God elects persons based upon his advanced knowledge, in eternity past, of their future decision of whether to receive Christ or not when presented the gospel” (p5.0)
- “assures the believer that salvation, from the beginning to end, is all of God” (p5.1)
- removes the danger that anyone “may boast before the Lord of any manner of contribution to his salvation” (p5.1)
Arguments against Armenianism:
- if election is conditioned upon “foreseen faith,” “there is one ultimate action relating to our salvation that we do and God specifically does not do and cannot effect” (p5.2)
Salvation is of us, not of the Lord? The realization that we need salvation does not mean that we are able to save ourselves. Here's an (imperfect) analogy: A (conscious) man who is drowning knows that he cannot save himself from drowning. Someone on the scene reaches out a saving hand, but the drowning man must decide to take the hand extended to him or to pass it up. Does that mean he saved himself? In some ways, one could argue yes, but I think the reality is no. Sure, he made the choice to reach out and grab the salvation offered in the extension of the hand, but if it had not been offered in the first place, he would most certainly have died, regardless of his own struggle. That is God’s abiding love and grace, that he loves us so much, he allows us to reject his help, even if it hurts us (and him) to do so.
- according to Ware’s understanding of the “supposed libertarian freedom of the individual" view held by Armenian perspective, "God cannot ensure that any person will believe. God does all that he can do, but the choice, in the end, is up to us” (p5.2)
I don't see these as the only options. I think that, in his desire to be in real relationship with us, the pinnacle of his creation, God limits himself and allows us to choose to pursue him or not. Adam and Eve are the only two who had the advantage of coming at this from a state of sinlessness; we start in a fallen state, but with a knowledge deep in our souls that something is not right, and in seeking for the answer to this, God reveals to us his plan of salvation, which some will accept as that elusive Truth of our souls, and some will reject for a multitude of reasons. What are those reasons? They are as numerous as the different sins, but they usually boil down to a selfishness and desire to make our own gods. The idea of God limiting himself out of love for his creation is seen in Jesus, who became man and therefore had to deal with all man's limitations, including obedience to death.
Maybe it seems that I already have a stance on the question of election, but I am truly open to all options, and I am merely inserting my own thoughts about these arguments, because I cannot at this point reconcile them to my understanding and experience of God, who loves all his creation. Why would a God who loves everything he made only choose to save some? Sure, he is well within his rights to do that, but why not simply start the whole thing over? Why bother doing something that has the potential to redeem the whole world and not force the whole world to be redeemed? I hope that I can offer some more concrete ideas, later on, but I'm too tired to think anymore, tonight. :)
Hi Dell--It is exciting to see the journey you are currently on and, if you don't mind, I would like to joing you in your discovery. As you may know, I am Wesleyan (and by association, Armenian) in my theological background and so will bring that particular perspective to the table. As a place to begin, I would invite you to read the article "God's Foreknowledge, Predestination, and Human Freedom." It is located at http://www.crivoice.org/freedom.html. (I'm not sure how links work in a blog so just copy/paste it into your browser if it isn't active.)
ReplyDeleteAs a side note, I don't promise to have the "final answer" or even to understand all the issues involved. However, I do appreciate the conversation itself and hope that it will be productive in your journey. I've found that discussions like this always benefit me as I am open to God's truth. Uncle Mike
Hey Uncle Mike,
ReplyDeleteI'd love to have your comments and insight. I'll check that article out as soon as I get a chance. I don't really expect to come to a complete understanding or some ultimate truth on the matter, but I do find the process enlightening, and I hope to learn something more of the character of God along the way. I look forward to hearing more of you thoughts and comments as I learn more.
One thing that I've discovered is that various theological perspectives spend most of their time defending their positions and, by default, pointing out the weaknesses in others. So, the invitation is to explore the writings of both sides of the issues. Although I align myself with a particular tradition because it rings true to me, I know there is truth in opposing positions as well. In fact, I need to hear those positions in order to not become too theologically narcassistic (if that's a term!). Reformed theology reminds me that God is in control. I need to remember that, especially in a system that puts such high value on human freedom. I'm reminded of a saying from an old TV show from the 90's--"Truth is out there!" (or something like that.)
ReplyDeleteAnd, by the way, you aren't behind (2000 years or otherwise), just taking steps in the journey. Take care.
Well, I'm not sure what I just did. I was working on a post and it disappeared. I'll check back and see if it comes up. Otherwise, I'll try to post it again... :[
ReplyDeleteLet’s try again.
ReplyDeleteThis is in response to your initial post about divine election by Ware. I put some paragraph references in to try and connect my comments to your post but may not have counted right. So, just connect the dots…
P1 First, note the object of the first sentence regarding being "chosen." "[God] chose us in him…to be holy and blameless in his sight." The object of being chosen, then, is not a predestined salvation, but a call to be "holy and blameless." An understanding of "holy and blameless" is not the point here, so we won't pursue that right now.
P1 The second statement is a bit more problematic from a Wesleyan-Arminian perspective--"In love he predestined us to be adopted…" While I won’t try to spell out an opposing view, there are 2 issues at stake that should be noted: (1) if we are to examine "predestined," it must be in context of the entire teaching of the Bible, in particular the NT and, in this case, Paul's understanding of the term/concept; (2) it must be considered in juxtaposition to the many other texts that appear to suggest salvation offered to all and responded to as a free choice. The purpose here is not, at this point, to adopt one perspective or the other, but simply to lay the foundation for a complete rendering of the subject.
P2 The point you raise is on target, although I would suggest that the primary issue is not what people think is important, but what the Bible says.
P4-7 Again, right on track. You ask valid questions and provide sound logic. It is hard to believe that any Christian individual or group would say that the Bible does not teach something about predestination. The question is, then, what does it teach? Much of the answer depends on ones assumptions (what I call presuppositions) that form the foundation for what he/she believes. Your argument here begins with certain assumptions about God, creation, salvation, etc. The terminology included expresses presuppositions as well. The key in studying scripture about a particular subject is not to ignore or pretend our presuppositions do not exist. Rather, the key is to allow them to come under the examination of the Holy Spirit through our study.
Continued. For some reason the previous post would not take the entire thing. So...
ReplyDeleteP 9ff This relates to how we view God's knowledge of future events. Traditionally, this "debate" has fallen into the following categories based on an understanding of God's omniscience: (1) God knows all things, past, present, and future. (2) God knows all things but, since the future hasn't happened yet, he can predict future probability perfectly. This would be like playing cards and being able to predict with certainty what the next hand will be. In essence, God can predict who will/will not accept him. (3) (This is the view proposed by Bratcher) The future does not exist and thus God cannot know it. God has chosen to live in creative relationship to his creation (human beings in particular), so that the future is something being "worked out" as we go.
As to the second 2 quotes, is there another way to think of this that provides the same assurance/avoids the danger, yet does not make unconditional election necessary? Your illustration is right on track.
P15 This is correct concerning "libertarian freedom." Does it take away from God's sovereignty to say that he limits himself by granting freedom to human beings? Is the incarnate Christ an example of this self-limitation (i.e. see Philippians 2)?
Final Comments--The key issue, as noted previously, is what Scripture says. My goal in this first round of comments is simply to provide a contrasting view. If Scripture is central, then any rendering of predestination (however it is interpreted) must take into account the texts that seem to point to human freedom and/or the universality of God's provision of salvation.
As with any system of thinking, though, there are always limits and thus holes can be poked in the logic. So, as we move forward, examine the issues and decide which has greater sway for you.
The second statement is a bit more problematic from a Wesleyan-Arminian perspective--"In love he predestined us to be adopted…"
ReplyDeleteI actually don't find that to be very troubling at all from a Wesleyan perspective. The basic idea is that it is God who chose us, that without His choosing us, we could never have chosen Him. And we see that play out in our belief in prevenient grace. The grace that comes before - the grace that God bestows upon us even as we enter this life. We believe that this is the grace that allows us to see our need from God. That apart from God's choosing to grace us in this way, that we couldn't ever see Him or accept Him. We are the elect - all of us! God's people. He elects us all and gives us all His grace as we are just beginning.
Sounds like another Wesleyan lurking out there!
ReplyDeleteWow! Thanks for those comments. You've energized me to keep going with this. School's getting busier, but I should find time pretty soon to put up a second and final post about the Reformed/Calvinist perspective. I just attended a church music conference in Waco, and Rob Bell mentioned the words found in the Bible to discuss salvation: redeemed, adopted, justified, etc. These words reflect the same thing from different perspectives in the culture. If I remember correctly, redeemed means to give value to something that had become worthless and is a finance or tax collector term. Adopted is obvious, and it reflects a familial relationship. Justified is a legal term, and so forth. With this understanding, strict and narrow understandings of terms start to melt away. One of the awesome things about the Bible is that it presents the Truth with diverse syntax in order to reach a diverse audience. I am especially interested in the idea that Paul's writings reflect his coming to terms with why Jesus appeared to him after everything he had done. Paul surely understood that it was not anything of his own doing that saved him. I plan to blog about that more fully at a later time.
ReplyDeleteI'll look forward to your comments, Dell. Interestingly enough, words are not quite as straight forward as we wish they were. So, things like redeemed, adopted, etc., will take on different meanings depending on ones theological bent. Then, add to that historical/cultural perspectives and you get another layer added to the mix.
ReplyDeletePerhaps an illustration from music will help. Some of the "classical" stuff (i.e. Bach, Bethoven, etc.) has been rewritten in a contemporary medium. Many contemporary listeners hear the music and think it is great (or whatever word is used to describe it these days!), not realizing that what they are listening to has its roots in music that is hundreds of years old. The same tune in church (as a hymn) is an old guy's song and typically rejected outright by a younger audience.
So, context makes all the difference.
Just wanted to throw that out as you move forward.